Wednesday, April 1, 2009

Mock Mars Mission Mockery

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/090331-mock-mars105-begins.html

I'm not fond of the all male crew setup. Are we going to dodge the "sex in space" topic forever? Are we really that anal, no pun intended, about sex in space?

Something tells me that sticking a crew of guys on what amounts to a three year mission to Mars is just asking for micro-social unrest and a black eye incident. Plus the place will probably smell like a bag of dry roasted peanuts after a while. lol.

If we really plan to colonize anywhere else in the solar system, you MUST factor in gender mixing. You cannot avoid it, so you might as well start off the experiment right away addressing it, because it's not going away. Long duration trips to Mars will have mixed crews, otherwise it's one hell of a sexist endeavor, and I think that would be a bunch of crap. We're not asexual creatures.

Also, if this is about research, then there are far too many flaws for it to be justifiable research, and many of them have been addressed in the forum for this article, like the fact that they know help is really on the other side of the door. That's without a doubt the biggest flaw in the whole thing and if this is how any past experiments were done, then I don't like them either.

Put them on an island. Put them in the arctic. Put them somewhere where there is justifiable risk, so that their minds and bodies can react accordingly.

Some say that we are already doing this with the ISS. You can't really compare ISS vs. Lunar or Martian living. Even the lunar 1/6 g is more than you ever get on ISS, and that matters physiologically. As far as social interaction, ISS is showing things, but 6 months with 3 mates is a lot different than 36 with 12.

20 comments:

Norman Copeland said...

Truefully buddy, I think your pouring scorn on a situation that you've joined to support yourself. You yourself have said that what is neccessary is a basic, perhaps detailed plan of progression for our race. The SETI community have knowledge of such thesis's that have been subject of particular interest and the characters involved.

It appears that the basic progression rate of space exploration is not fast enough for your opinion and honestly, the resources are available, but, as we have knowledge of, not, to any particular senator, NASA operative, military member or ordinary member of the public.

This is the reason that we segregate intelligence ability and quotient my friend, because experience really does tell here, you see, if your reporting on behalf of the public you need tell them what it is that you believe they want, need, and what is good for them from your educated opinion.

Thats what creates interest, when your saying something that people need to listen about.

People get bored when people blabber on, and thats why leaders inspire people, because they have the ability to channel the community.

My advice to budding journalists is to channel your frustration at sources that you have researched and believe to be correct, politically and ethically.

Without direction, people start throwing caution to the wind, they start switching off instincts that tell them what right and wrong is, and believe me buddy, 'you will do well to choose your path with caution'. Man to man, seek to aspire, conspire will retire, true is a 'plot' but inherit what 'you got'.

Womens bodies depend on fluid interactions with the moon and as such water retention is a large inhibiter of human female movement, intrinsically the frequencies which are reponsible for the creation of female hormones during these periods are ultimately the frequencies that need scientific research.

That subject is known as human biology. It is not space exploration. This really is an era which needs more and more scientific organisations to direct particular developments with government funding. I guess the issue is 'co-ordination'.

Douglas Mallette said...

Norman - I speak directly from the heart, because you are absolutely right, I don't think we're progressing nearly as fast as we should with respect to space exploration and development.

There are so many positives related to going to space that are simply ignored right now and it drives me nuts. A true space movement can help humanity, and this needs to be addressed in the most public and serious manner.

I don't understand what you mean by this though..."Truefully buddy, I think your pouring scorn on a situation that you've joined to support yourself."

I scorn bad practice, or what I believe to be bad practice, and I never say that something stinks without offering an alternative. Such is the case here. I don't think this research is pointed at the correct issues and doesn't place the participants in the right situation.

I feel the best way to monitor how men and women react biologically in space is to go there. You cannot replicate the Lunar or Martian environments in their entirety. The only thing to do is monitor those people who are actually there, which means we need to start sending people there soon.

Jerry M. Weikle said...

Norman and Douglas, I found your discussion enlighting upon the desire to see the progression of humanity in regards to the development of space based technologies and even living off Earth.
There is a difference in how people "think" and conceptualize their knowledge and perceptions. A scientist or one who is taught science, has the ability to think "across time". This occurs because of studies in the natural sciences, geology and biology. Yes, the general public has taken high-school levels of science; then with the basic skills want to argue about 'evolution' vs 'intelligent design', as an example.
Then there are the groups, the Star Trekker Conventions and whatnot--being thought of as a sub-culture based upon their interest within "Sci-Fi". What I am reiterating, basically, is that the average public citizen entertains concepts of "Terraforming Mars", "Building Moon Bases" or "Galactic Cruisers" from a Sci-fi standpoint.

When Holiday Inn builds a Lunar Hotel and people start traveling to the Moon and look back at the Earth...the cognitive realizations occur.

When life, be it genetically modified or artic tundra species from Earth, grow and thrive on Mars...the cognitive realization of Terraforming occurs.

When the various simulations and planetary zoomible maps are detailed to within a centimeter of knowing how much water exist on Mars, where life would be most conducive to exist or being planted; knowning exactly the areas for mining operations based up chemical analysis of the Moon or Mars, is within the abilities of the "Public Mind"...will the process of living off world and developing a new concept of society.

Our current civilization is a Global Village concept, all of our various cultures and societies are interlinked together. I need not go into economic conditions and AIG, GM, or the proposed 1 Trillion bailout plans floating through the various governments around the World. Our "Global Village" consist of many highly educated business leaders...but they are still "Earth Centered" in their thinking. Thusly, one might argue that our current society is lead by many 'village idiots' at the various pontificated levels.

Do the business leaders or even the influencial people, really see and understand the need for developing space based technology and living off world? Would Oprah, for instance, with her Billions, publically support and lead people to support the concept of "Colonizing Mars"? I cannot say, especially when there are too many issues on the Earth that people are concerned about; feeding the hungry, providing medical coverage, attending to spiritual needs, rebuilding the global economy, the need for energy sources.

In the mind of the general public, with all the various issues occuring worldwide...How does 6 people in a tin can capsule traveling to Mars or the Moon going to do anything important for the current situations in the world?

Are they going to find a new energy source?
Are they going to be planting a flag saying "We did it" when they really need to plant a few biological life forms?
How will six or 10 people start a mining colony?
Are they going to go 'delusional' because of the cognitive and psychological aspects of being isolated from Earth events while on the Moon or Mars?
Are they going to be accidently exposed to some type of bacterial microbial life--totally different and unknown--possibly gram negative or gram positive--that will harm humanity?

There are 1000 and one questions on how the development of space based technologies will benefit humanity. Unfortunately, our species might not discover those answers or even the questions asked, because of population pressures here on the Earth in 2060.



Aristotle and Copernius:
What does one do when confronted with such radical and different ways of thinking...which is beyond the abilities of the breadmaker, coopersmith, and seller of fruits in the Market square?

Jerry M. Weikle said...

Correction of a thought, second to last paragraph.

Unfortunately, our species might not discover those answers or even the questions that will be asked one day, because of the population pressures here on the Earth in 2060.

Norman Copeland said...

Really Jerry, you have a way with words that is soothing to the scholars ear, you should be a radio talkshow presenter for space ergonomics, if there isn't a radio station you should start your own pirate station, I would imagine that America needs some scholarly gentlemen giving the apprentices the opportunity to debate and consider the classics and the arts.

Perhaps it would be easier getting an internet address with a voice messenger programme, you could record the show and let it have 'playagain function' while your organising other shows.

Clearly Jerry, we need regular debate among the larger audiences. Your 'off the cuff' knowledge is interesting and you mediate you answers with a temperate suggestion. Perhaps thats what society needs.

Well, I think I should ate something.

Jerry M. Weikle said...

Why, Thank you, Norman.
I know that I write or express ideas somewhat more conservative, being that the words and phrases are "tempered", being from a reflective learner view.

I am not in disagreement upon the need to develope space or even with Douglas; clearly, developing and broadening the applications of the technologies must occur.

Not to offend any Star Trekker or even Star Wars fans, but the Conventions are a great oppurtunity for the educational community to engage individuals with science and mathematics. If the United States Department of Education, and revisions of the NCLB Act, are considered; whilst students do need 'standards' they still need the creative application of the knowledge and skills developed.

Why wait for 20 years when the majority of school will be faced with financing a modeling and simulation room for interactive learning? Well, the technology does cost considerable and then too how does one ensure that the technology isn't being used in negative or determental ways. I am sure, Norman, that you are aware of the CAVE system; as well as, the Institute for Creative Technologies in Souther California.

Our species has so much beneficial knowledge that has been aquired over the years. I was reading an article, titled "Permian Polluters" that discussed the effects of halogenated gaseous and the extinction event during the Permian era. The article didn't mention Mars or oceans on Mars, just talking about the various types of gaseous because of saline oceans. I saw a link with the Martian oceans, atmosphere, and environments. Because the same article could have been broaden to explain the loss of oceans and hydrogen on Mars.

The article, was "Earth Centered". I assume, because I do not know, that you are a scientist and therefore your thinking abilities are "solar system".

I think, when our educational system turns out individuals that can see linkages or see probablities, simularities, differences between the various worlds...then there will be more individuals who have insight into developing Space technologies.

A simulation or model is an abstraction of reality, that attempt to find or discover answers within reality. There are so many different variables, that one can get to a high degree of validity and accuracy. Yet, there is that 'small room for the unknowns' that can actually affect the validity and accuracy of a simulation. Yet, that is why projections--such as climate modeling with greenhouse gaseous--are ran several times to compair results within the projections.

Norman, as you stated "Your 'off the cuff' knowledge is interesting and you mediate your answers with a temperate suggestion. Perhaps that is what society needs." in the comment above. Our society needs people that are not affraid to ask questions or make bold statements, but individuals that can read different types of literature and then make those statements with a sense of reserve.

Maybe, that is the hallmark of an educator? To get individuals thinking and asking questions, discovering answers...observations of the suttle differences on a finches beak.


Aristotle and Copernius;

Do tell, they the sailors speaketh of a land across the western ocean. They speaketh of names...as going to call the New World, by a name... Yet, everyday the people go hitherto and fro, to the markets, and to the Church on Sun'd morn. What marvels are to be seen....what valleys to walk...hills to climb...springs and fountains to drink from?
Let's get our belongings, pack them aboard and sail to the New World.

(Wink in the eye) Who knows...the women may be Atlantian green? That would be wicked....but far mor' interesting than these cloisted folk within the village and hamlets.

Norman Copeland said...

He who speaketh like a bull in a china shop
doth encourage the eye of a terraflop
courage is brutal upon those of attire
you listen my touch is not not of a squire
resonate persivere
choose the place among genuivere
thine has marched upon a fool
while the conquerer doth watch
as stars replicate a glorious drool
cometh he who knoweth not
arrived among thee thoust of camelot
speak not the name
thou has driven the insane
thy allegience is repenting
upon thy sword of representing
thy speak of Indra and learn of Vitra
thy king faces the universe
among a rhapsody of forgetting Karmasutra...

Jerry M. Weikle said...

I like the poetry Norman, talented. ;-)

From the discussion about the "Moon Flower".

The first plant to grow from seed and complete its life cycle on another world will be a significant step in the expansion of life beyond the Earth," McKay noted. "The sooner we do it the better."

Now that is a bold statement and good that Chris McKay stated a revolutionary idea. Applause! Cheers!

Wether it is the Moon or Mars, glass enclosures are going to be a necessity for humans and growing of plants. Not only the beneficial aspect of supplying oxygen for breathing, but for the physical comfort of something green and growing. Are we not 'tillers of the soil...for evermore.

There is also the psychological aspect of growing plants, they help reduce stress and provide enjoyment activities for individuals. While modern civilization is becoming cramped and crowded in mega-cities, people are begining to loose the connection with nature. Living offworld, presents a simular challenge....that sense of connection to the Earth systems...which will have to be duplicated as best as possible.

When we get to know that a certain type of artic lichen species can grow in the equatorial region on Mars.....or the various Dutch Bulb companies start developing hybridized flowers for growing in the Martian regolithic soils...then humans will be making progress to becoming a space technology species.

When humans can take samples of seeds and plants, growing upon Surtsey in the volcanic soils, and introduce them to the Martian equatorial region to begin a terraforming project....then humanity will have came a long way.

There are mineral resources available on Mars, that could be utilized to support infrastructure development and building of habitat structures for humanity.

Imagine, twenty thousand individuals living on Mars and working upon science related projects...all working together. It would be like a research University, people discovering the geological conditions first hand, people using technology to change and warm the atmosphere.

Since the 1970's....we have been told that colonies on the Moor or Mars is 20 years away....and that was nearly 40 years ago.

It is time, for the World to wake up and realize the potential of colonizing the Moon and Mars.

To ignor the potential, is eventually to the doom of Earth and a population crash occuring with the human species. It will be a Dark Age for humanity, lasting longer than the Dark Ages of our history since the Roman Empire.

Jerry M. Weikle said...

"That is usually where *scientific* psychological research *starts*. In this case, a more controlled study is the obvious next step. And the longer study the step after that, etc. Science of any kind is about replication, replication, replication--and in multiple settings, with alternate external variables, etc." From a commentator on Live Science.

They have been replicating the same data and psychological experiments for nearly 40 years with another 25 years before the "Manned Mars Mission" occurs.

Had Columbus had to deal with the "Psychological Community"....he would have taken a row boat out just a few miles off the coast of Spain.

The Native Americans would have invented boats and ships, the Mayans and the Aztecs would have sailed to Africa or Europe and Sigmund Freud would not have been born or possibly Carl Jung. They would have built temples and slaughtered the masses, ripping out the heart of Europeans and beheading the Africans. Who knows, what could have happened.

Your name might have been "Xophpoto" or "Running Jaguar".


If NASA or ESA are going to "Talk the Talk" then they need to start "Walking the Walk" and not 25 years out in the future.

People have been hearing that for 25 years.

Look at the social behaviors of people already influenced by Jung, Freud, and all these other "Mind Psychologist"----society is behaving like the "Rats" in High-density living CALHOUN'S (1962) STUDY ON RAT POPULATION DENSITY.

Hording resources, fighting over territoriies, spreading diseases.....

How much duplication and replication of the various situations need to occur? If humans are going to go to Mars, colonize the planet, do scientific research.....then Deanna Troil should be B* slapped...

Because so far there isn't the "To Boldly go, where no one has gone before." other than in television and sci-fic.

Fifty Thousand years ago, humanity left Africa. The endured the deserts of the Middle East, the rafting to Pacific Islands, they crossed the landbridge in Beringia.

They sure has heck didn't have some Cognitive Psychologist or Freudian Psychopath saying "Oh, now we don't want to do this. It is going to be dangerous."

The people 50,000 to the last 100 years....just DID things that they set out to do.

In the last 100 years, it seems that humanity has gotten weaker.

Where ever Christopher Columbus is, he is looking at all of the technology that humanity has.....

....and laughting.

Laughting, because he and his crew crossed the Atlantic Ocean in a rinky dinky little ship with no computer or navigational GPS system.

Norman Copeland said...

Cognitive research is not comparitve to suggestive research, which perhaps is an indication of the generation adhering to the philosophical opinons of Sigmeund freud.

During the generation of the younger adults of the end of WWII era a new western world was starting to emerge as America came out of prohibition and realised its own economic potential which it translated to industrial prowess [Reference Albert Einstein/Richard Feynman].

You see, what happened was a cross section among society which witnessed;

The end of the age of English imperialism

The beginning of mainstream american democratic organisation

The beginning of capitalist orientation towards communism

The start of the end of tribal communism

The quickening of world population boom


Among these changes the main contributer has been communication applications that have driven opinion among culture. It would be unfair to suggest that newer cultures based upon new technologies will be the danger componants of world development of the unforseeable future.

As you have rightfully suggested doing the homework for regular intrinsic value of community should be valued more importantly than the value of merchant value and potential.

As you have quoted yourself from greek examples of these social considerations, 'Plato' The republic exercises knowledge of controlling merchant/king/emporer vs the people development. Sophocles and aristotle, with serious contribution to historical philosophy.

More recently Fyodor Dostoevsky 'Crime and punishment' adding to concepts of philoshophy among controlled societies and societies exercises and exhibiting the components of a selection of characters controlling the totality of social infrastructure.

Continuing with examples of such notable volume, Leo Tolstoy and Anton Chekhov.

It perhaps would be politically adept to add Confucious as the mainstream contempary alternative to political philosophy.

For those interested with philosophy at quicker intervals with lateral effects as strong and rememberable as the great play and theseis ream volumes of philosophy, I would strongly reccommend Lord Byron as a champion literaturist to be considered.

Lord Tennyson among volumes, William wordworth most quoliqueral, and just forget yourself if you believe your intellect capable of comprehending the sheer delight of William shakespeare genius.

[All and more of which I have among my personal book library].


The king rat syndrome seems to have a distinct lack of appearance on the north American continant, perhaps its something to do with the Aryan nation gathering resourceful data historically.

What has all this got to do with why after world war two it has been proven statistically that more boys were born than girls.

I think Douglas is right, we must go to the places to have knowledge of them.


Still, I was married in Las vegas, what would I know.

Jerry M. Weikle said...

Douglas is correct, Norman, our society should go to have "knowledge of those places".

Knowledge, occurs through different means of aquiring learning, it is the intergration of all the various parts the summation of an ongoing discovery. Knowledge is more than books, statistics, facts, figures, projections and simulations...but the integration into a holistic deeper understanding of a connection with what the knowledge is about.

Confusicous and Lao Tzu have within their writings that essesence, the intrinstic holistic connection with the Universe. I could, and have, sit down to read Bill Brysons "A Short History of Nearly Everything" and enjoy it with a greater passion than some passions of life. Then I could turn the pages within the Tao with a feeling of peaceful insight. If I were a betting man, I would say that you have even experienced and thus simular...depth.

You speak of William Shakespear and the genuis within those writings, sonnets and dialogues with a far deeper understanding that I, Norman. I can entertain myself, having done so, by going to a Wisconsin "Renassaince Fair" to enjoy the characters and the ambiance of such a gathering.

Even a good stout ale, Aye! Thus, my own passion may not have been as great, beyond the experience of a living Canterbury Tale. All of these great literatary works, from the germanic tribal lore during the Dark Ages to modern era discoveries that survived in the Roman Universities in Africa are available to the students today. Yet, do the students have the apprieciation the insight to see into those writings the essences of the story of humanity?

Our various religions and cultures are based upon writings...elavated to the highest level by individuals throughout time...and prevented individuals from learning, thinking and making discoveries. Even Charles Darwin, questioned and struggled with revealing evolutionary concepts because of the association with religion and philosophy of religion. He realized a truth that society would not understand or accept until nearly two centuries later. Thusly, in non-western societies, ideas upon evolution are not acceptable because of the conflict with social idealogies. Our own Christianity is based upon philosophical morales and ideas of living a 'good life'...and very simular to ideas in India's Hinduism.

Yet, this, conversation is really about the future. What directions will humanity take, given the complexities of the 21st century. We are no longer a hunter/gather society, nor a pastorial society of tending to the flock. Our world society is facing issues of global warming, changing climate shifts, global conflict over the need for resources and living space.

It is those needs that must be met through the various sciences working together. While Thomas Malthus is questionable on some of the aspect of Overpopulation, and heaven forbid one making linkages to Calhouns(1962)studies on rats to humans...chuckling...they still relate and have merit to conditions within humanity.

To simplify, humans are going to have to start developing, achieving, and building off world habitats for humans. If not for scientific discoveries...of which will occur...but for the survival of the human species and other species intrinsic to humanity--the flora and fauna--the oak tree, fido the dog, and even a daffiodil.

(not to mention the bag of horse manure for the terrestial bacteria that will be needed to break down rocks and soils into usable resources for plants and animals.)

So, Norman, you were married in Las Vegas....I think you have an indepth understanding and apprieciation of things.

Norman Copeland said...

Well, yes Jerry, It's not neccessary to bet, a man searching for his alter has many path's, less are they for the righteous? I have learnt Toaism at a basic standard and did classify myself as taoist.

Taoist connection to nature and observation of it transforms the world as we have westernly commonly percieved it with Christianity [Not including Russia and Russian paganism].

Truefully, I respect, admire and talk to god from time among time, he is an exceptional friend among these questions and myriads.

I needed more than the bible initially offered me as I didn't feel the need for visiting the church, I thought the holy water strange and not of this world, so, yes, I decided to explore other knowledge which helped me become closer to my own feelings.


The bible speaks of many many animals and spirits of which probably I have not encountered because I have not read the entire bible. For some reason it presented some sort of mental block for me that other teachings did not.

I listened to Japanese stories of spirits of the forest, spirits of earth, wind, fire and water.

Immediately I was at home with this blatent and abrupt introduction to spirits and the natural nature of our habitat.

After some years observing Taoism which I was most satisfied with, I wanted to be scientifically knowledgeable about the nature of heavens and hells, ghosts and other forms of creatures that walk among us.

I always knew the Egyptians were an advanced society, but, immediately I knew I was with league.

The thing is Jerry, is that Chinese shintoism and Taoism has the stories for humans on earth and in the heavens, they tell of great men and women who have been of this world, but, truelly
I have not found my home at Egyptian paganism because the quest for knowledge and the pursuit of it is more than I am capable of learning completely while I am this simple plain man.

The darkness of the universe beckons me, as do spirits of past masters and warriors. It is inevitable that the world will soon learn of different dimensions and realms and the science of how to create them.

Its Egyptian paganism that has seen me convert fully to it's principles and art.

For I know not the word of my 'masters' bane.


We on the verge of space travel would do well to consider if alien ghosts exhist and whet do they think of us?

Hey, they may even have poltergeists, some of them may be randy...

Still, it could be interesting to see what the bible will explain to aliens?

Jerry M. Weikle said...

Norman, I like that question that you pose.

If, another intelligent species exists in the Universe that is on par with humanity, then it would be quite interesting to know what they think of our concept of religions. Equalily too, what would humanity think if they were to discover Aliens had religious philosophies and edicts.

All of our Earthly religions have "A Begining"; someone or group of individuals were wondering about "The how we got here". There are always a "Great Teacher" as it was someone who taught people to think differently and a message about the harsh realities of life.

Norman, truthful, I cannot say religion is a bad construct of the human society. Religion has stablized and calmed individuals, people, nations, in times of great stress or changes. I can apprieciate the historical or anthropological aspects of a society.

I was looking earlier on MSNBC at the pictures of Greece and the temples that once existed. Zeus and Athena, were the Greeks wrong with their pantheon of gods? No, they gave names to things to explain things...spirits and sprites, nymphs. Is that no different than the American Indian culture, or the pygmies of the Congo.

The temples that were created for their Gods have turned to rubble and dust in the wind. As the sand stretch far, far away, to paraphase Shelley. Our very own temples, office complexes, stadiums...without upkeep would fall into dispair and rubble in less than 200 years if humanity were to accidently create a supervirus. Who is to say, what occurs in the genetic labs in Asia or even with this rocket launch from North Korea.

Humanities greatest achievements, really consists of its artworks. The abstraction of reality or the duplication of reality in a 2 D space of a canvas. Even our communication is occuring in an abstraction of reality, the means of which consist of the internet and Douglas blog space.

Each one of us, we have thoughts and ideas that we think upon. Some of those ideas would seem outlandish to another individual but it is the sharing of thoughts and ideas in that hyperspace reality or "God Space" between two individuals seperated by miles of a communication. For example: If person A speaks, then surely person B is listening and comprehending what person A is speaking of is space C.

Person B, then contemplates upon the words of person A and voices a thought into space C. Upon hearing the words of person B, person A either agrees or disagrees. If there are many agreements, their words become simular within the merger--mutually inclusive and mutually exclusive linquistic relationships. If their words or thoughts are from the begining in disagreement, further exchange within conversations may or may not occur. (Take for example the stranger one passes on the street and a brief exchange of 'hello' occurs.)

I, too, understand that mental block you speak of concerning the Bible. I think is a written down version of oral histories and traditons having gone through revisions. Much like current history teaching within the schools today. Have you, per chance, gone into an old book shop and purchased a book from the late 1800's to the 1920's, the detail of the history.

Everything in the known universe, was born or created in the nuclear fires of a sun long ago. The carbon that is in my cells are no different than the carbon in your body or Douglas's body, or in the oak tree that grows in the forest. Christianity, cannot make that logical statement of the interconnections. Taoism can and does...it is the simplest philosophical system and the paradox is that no one can practice complete Tao.

The true paradox of religion is that to speak of religion or of God, is to define the religion or God in the concepts of the human mind. Does that not limit that religion or put upon God a limitation--to fit humanities concept. If God is or of, the Universe, then God is way, way, larger than anyone on this planet--my feeble mind cannot comprehend all of that, because of the limitation thereof. Why would I speak of something that I do not know or can fully comprehend. I dare not reiterate to another...yet do others not reiterate their God to society?

Yet, whilst this is an extremely enlighting conversation upon the philosophical belief systems of one another in regards to overall society; both basically stating simular questions in the exchange of thoughts. The larger question, is the future of human society beyond the 21st Century going to progress or decline?

How will the people; say one thousand years from now, assuming that Mars is colonized and terraformed, think as a species living on two worlds in the solar system?

All that we have to go upon, and this is inaccurate, is the differences between us and the Austrialians and the United Kingdom. We have simular cultures, legal definitions, business constructs--yet there are the differences between the 'siblings' of Britian.
Therefore, those that move to Mars will be the offshoot of humanities civilizations.

It would be interesting to live, say 500 years, just to see all the changes occuring. But then some of those changes might be too radical to comprehend.

Norman Copeland said...

Well, truefully, I believe that recordings of history of various forms have had significant effect upon our phsyche, I agree, art is probably our races greatest accomplishing tribute.

As it is, it is an expression of which has not hindered our ability to convey our truest feelings, our attempts to tell everything what we think of everything.

That may be strange to an alien race which has got its entire history logged and that may well be the reasonn we are darn good at it.

It's like, if you look at the art of the world we're constantly trying to know ourselves as if we have an innate desire to learn more about ourselves.

We're like children who have been put in a kindergarten, and not got much knowledge of what we should do or what sort of things we should do.

It has been something to consider that among the regions of the world we have recorded different attempts at speaking to what perhaps subconciously is our origin.

Why is it that the great tradegies and stories of artists and musicians bring ourselves closer to each other.


For instance, Romeo and Juliet, a beautifully horrible tradegy. That the entire world has loved since its conception.

I think we really could learn a lot from that, sort of like, we are members of a race that we have been separated from and we cry internally for them, we yearn to be whole and loved again because we know who we are and I really stronly believe that we want to be reunited with our true identities.

Art is an amazing conceptual empathic experience which we all connect with.

It may be the salvation of our race to acknowledge the reasons why we seek to emerge ourselves to levels that help us feel better.

For, I believe we still search for unification of our true selves.

Its difficult, but, I believe men like you Jerry, people who give art the chance to speak to them, may be able to offer medicine for our searching, long lost selves.

I'd really like to accomplish that level of phsychological submission, before we meet any other species.


Little grey men, no, I'm not, I'm a man of 5.10ft height, and thats why I think the way I do. I'm not trying to be something that isn't me at this consideration,because I know that its not neccessary to change somethings about being human, inevitably will might change, but, will our art?

It's that, that I will cling to, because that's our heritage, and no one's gonna take that away from me.

Jerry M. Weikle said...

Norman--"It's like, if you look at the art of the world we're constantly trying to know ourselves as if we have an innate desire to learn more about ourselves. We're like children who have been put in a kindergarten, and not got much knowledge of what we should do or what sort of things we should do".

On the pathway to intelligence, our primal ancestors upon the grassy savannahs and plains toiled with a stick and a leaf. Did they not feed upon a mound of termites...and then draw circles in the sand?

Did they not look at shells and see a neckless? Did they not clump clay into a drinking cup or container for drinking water.

Do they, first finger paint...or while playing outside in the yard pick up a stick and begin to dig...or jam the stick in a yellow-jackets nest? All the while, communicating and talking of stories...wondering at the moon and stars above. In their art, do they not see pictures in the clouds?

Or speak of sprites and spirits in the forests and Amazonian basin or mountains of New Guinea? Or types of trees, that grow in the Congo that make the best sound. While other tree's make the best arrows.

Does Cupid not, still fling the Arrow at Romeo and Juliet? Thus eternally appealing to all loves lost or scorned throughout the saga of humanities collective experiences.

Norman, look throughout the web, the images of a Terraformed Mars, my friend. Humanities vision is within the very art that humanity produces. It's destruction, too, is within humanities art.

Norman, this is my opinion and I may be wrong, but if there happens to be an Alien species somewhere in the galaxy, to have the abilitie of intelligence it would have initially created and artform. As far as what is known, it is that creativity, the abstraction of thoughts that empathically connect one being to another and within all things that are uniquely human.

Norman, one first must learn the arts to craft the future. Ironically, I saw a reference to nuclear physicist using music to train them upon the vibrations of the atom. They need to hear the song that resides within the universe. As much as Darwin captured within his artwork the sutle differences in the finches. The intrinsic importance of creativity and sensitivity has lead our progenitor and even our own species forward during the last 2.5 Million years. Paradoxically, agression has occurred across the same frame of time. Humm..isn't that even Taoist.

There are so many discoveries ahead...with sending humans to Mars and to the Moon...during the 21st Century.

Norman Copeland said...

I thought about what you was saying, perhaps you could help me get the article and research which I was reading some years ago that really interested me. It is research about the molecular composition of water and how it reacts to sounds. I was browsing the internet doing some chemistry research and didn't make note of the url.

A japanese scientist was photographing the molecular effects of singing to water, the water molecules actually changed formation and restructured themselves.

What the scientist continued to do was play different music to the water. I was practicing Tao then and immediately I knew that this must be how water sprites are born and how they move about, others will laugh, but, it is this standard of atomic energy that is responsible for the next realm to ours which is the 3rd dimension.

The research he did involved shouting and banging lots of different noises at the water which had different effects, atomically structurally speaking.

It is common knowledge that talking to plants has an effect and my opinion is that it is because of the plants ability to translate light to air [photosynthesis], generally speaking, vibrations. An entire language based upon vibrations exists that we are totally ignorant of and still, 'talking to plants' is considered an old wives tale, 'or' the sort of thing witches do.

What a lot of people don't realise is, is that things of molecule size are of our world and of the next dimension world [we can see it/we can't see it]. Catagorically, solid mass is formed of structures of atoms/molecules that decompose's to lesser bulk collections of its molecular character.

Hence, a man/women will generate energy their entire life that will stick to them [chemicle valencing], that energy is called plasma and it resides in blood. When the human body is expired, the plasma is still active because it is composed of a finer form of energy, that I believe is the ghost.

Egyptian paganism teach's us that the body is a mechanism of different parts;

The Ba {spirit}

The Ka {The ghost}

The body [the vessel}

It is said that when the human body sleeps the Ba wonders and it is the Ka that ''feels'' the sleep.

It is this sort of thing that worries me about exploring space.

Jerry, my own opinion is, truefully, as a race we're not ready for it. The Egyptian's were, the maya's and the Incas were, the African tribe's were.

You see, knowledge of paganism is not scared to evaluate the possible events that could occur with different realms, black magic and white magic.

What if every other alien race is doing it, especially because it is the real truth, the possibilities of what can be done with space time, it would be mature to suggest that every alien race does use it.

I wonder if the modern western is getting carried away with itself and its money.

Like I said, this sort of knowledge really hasn't been clarified for the astronuaght, on behalf of an astronaught, from the government or any one of the modern western world authories.

And we march on...

Jerry M. Weikle said...

In the time between this and that above, I thought about our "First Contact", Norman. There are many things out upon the web, the accuracy or validity of which I cannot say. Yet, somethings are insightful with, empathic connections, across time and space.
I shall...

There are rare, unique, people in this world and not understood by....I have had the privilage of meeting a few in life...

You Scored as Traveler
You are a Traveler Empath, you come from a time & place far removed from here. You are an innocent, in search of your own kin and have a difficult time understanding this world. You are lost & only want to find your way back home. You bring unique gifts to this world and share them with a loving heart. Although very misunderstood, you are also very forgiving. (from the "Book of Storms" by Jad Alexander at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Empaths/)



Traveler
95%
Artist
95%
Universal
90%
Judge
90%
Fallen Angel
90%
Shaman
80%
Precog
75%
Healer
70%

To the accuracy and validity of such...everything is questionable in it's discoveries.

Egyptian Paganism could have been their priests understanding of multiple intelligences within certain people. That these individuals were integrated into a whole being, seemly more complete within their own existance. What do you think, Norman?

Looking into the waters...
the flowing river of long, long ago.
The western river flows.
Along its banks and shore, papyrus and reeds, thus grow.
The water horse submerges and the crocodiles bask ashore in...
Alas, that was a long, long time ago.
Looking into the waters...

Jerry M. Weikle said...

...of when I was first born.
The Universe, too,
thus flows in myrid streams,
the fish dart and sing.
In a land long ago...

Norman, I sent Douglas a few links...but when I step away and shut my eyes...you seek the work of Dr. M. Emoto at www.hado.com.au/masaruemoto.htm

he speaks of sacred geometry and the Golden Mean of Ma'at.

Spirit of Ma'at have reported, Dr. Masaru Emoto has proven over and over again, through photographing water crystals, that there is a geometrical correspondence between human thoughts and emotions and the very shape of the matter that surrounds us. Water, Emoto has shown, "treated" with love or beautiful music, undergoes molecular change into beautiful, harmonious geometrical forms. And the same happens in reverse: chaotic or "negative" thought and emotion cause the crystals of water to become unformed and unlovely.

http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/jan4/williams.htm

Peace.

Douglas Mallette said...

What the hell are you both talking about? You've hijacked my article with off the wall esoteric babble. lol.

Norman Copeland said...

I have some articles I have collected posted at the seti@home science forum about my theories of water molecules transforming life from planet to planet. The theory is known as 'panspermia'.

www.space.com has excellent regular science articles that sometimes include the latest research about these subjects.